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	<title>Comments on: Washing Tons for Boggers</title>
	<atom:link href="http://distractible.org/2009/07/18/washing-tons-for-boggers/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://distractible.org/2009/07/18/washing-tons-for-boggers/</link>
	<description>Thoughts of a moderately strange (yet not harmful) primary care physician.</description>
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		<title>By: Maureen Kane R.N.</title>
		<link>http://distractible.org/2009/07/18/washing-tons-for-boggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4626</link>
		<dc:creator>Maureen Kane R.N.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:15:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://distractible.org/?p=2707#comment-4626</guid>
		<description>Thanks Charlie. I will report out on  the town hall meeting  tomorrow with President Obama. He will be here in Ohio to discuss health car reform and I got 2 tickets. Can&#039;t wait.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Charlie. I will report out on  the town hall meeting  tomorrow with President Obama. He will be here in Ohio to discuss health car reform and I got 2 tickets. Can&#8217;t wait.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://distractible.org/2009/07/18/washing-tons-for-boggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4625</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:55:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://distractible.org/?p=2707#comment-4625</guid>
		<description>Will do Sir, and thank you for accepting my apology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will do Sir, and thank you for accepting my apology.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://distractible.org/2009/07/18/washing-tons-for-boggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4624</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:36:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://distractible.org/?p=2707#comment-4624</guid>
		<description>Maureen, I like this post… I would enjoy hearing more from you, blog on!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maureen, I like this post… I would enjoy hearing more from you, blog on!</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://distractible.org/2009/07/18/washing-tons-for-boggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4623</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:18:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://distractible.org/?p=2707#comment-4623</guid>
		<description>Charlie:  If I can have a bad tone, you can as well.  No problem at all.  Thanks for apologizing.

I am actually going to write a post coming up about the fact that I have been more angry and provocative than normal.  You helped point that out (along with others&#039; comments).  For contrast, read Monday&#039;s physical exam post.

Keep your head up.  It is a good sign that you apologized and I hope you come back and whack me across the shins if I need it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charlie:  If I can have a bad tone, you can as well.  No problem at all.  Thanks for apologizing.</p>
<p>I am actually going to write a post coming up about the fact that I have been more angry and provocative than normal.  You helped point that out (along with others&#8217; comments).  For contrast, read Monday&#8217;s physical exam post.</p>
<p>Keep your head up.  It is a good sign that you apologized and I hope you come back and whack me across the shins if I need it.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://distractible.org/2009/07/18/washing-tons-for-boggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4622</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:11:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://distractible.org/?p=2707#comment-4622</guid>
		<description>Kerri, Rod and everyone else here, I apologize for the &quot;hornets nest&quot;.  It WAS hard to be such an @ss-- please believe me.  In fact the whole thing has left me empty, save some feelings of guilt.

If I misunderstood the “stupid doctor” statment, it’s not the first time I have been wrong and I know it will not be the last.

As Doc. Rob stated my “problem” was reading one of his most radical postings first. But it was not his ideas I disagreed with (mostly)-- It was the delivery.

I am now trying to edit my Masters Thesis down to a manageable size (it is about 120 pages.) It covers several different EMR systems, types of implementations, costs, ROI, efficiency, barriers and other associated issues.

I hope this effort moves me away from being part of the problem (having stated no avenue for solution) and, I hope will help to answer some questions. But I fear it will take a few weeks to cut the meat from the bloated APA standards it adheres to.

Again my apologies…</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kerri, Rod and everyone else here, I apologize for the &#8220;hornets nest&#8221;.  It WAS hard to be such an @ss&#8211; please believe me.  In fact the whole thing has left me empty, save some feelings of guilt.</p>
<p>If I misunderstood the “stupid doctor” statment, it’s not the first time I have been wrong and I know it will not be the last.</p>
<p>As Doc. Rob stated my “problem” was reading one of his most radical postings first. But it was not his ideas I disagreed with (mostly)&#8211; It was the delivery.</p>
<p>I am now trying to edit my Masters Thesis down to a manageable size (it is about 120 pages.) It covers several different EMR systems, types of implementations, costs, ROI, efficiency, barriers and other associated issues.</p>
<p>I hope this effort moves me away from being part of the problem (having stated no avenue for solution) and, I hope will help to answer some questions. But I fear it will take a few weeks to cut the meat from the bloated APA standards it adheres to.</p>
<p>Again my apologies…</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://distractible.org/2009/07/18/washing-tons-for-boggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4616</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 03:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://distractible.org/?p=2707#comment-4616</guid>
		<description>Please do voice your opinion.  I will say that I have actually served on a formulary committee for an insurance company and know that these folks are not evil or bad people - they are doing what is best for their business.  I have no problems with them doing that.

My beef is not with the management of care - I agree 100% that care/cost has to be managed (I reiterated that multiple times in Washington).  My problem is to put a for-profit company as the one to decide if money should be withheld.   Even with very nice moral people at insurance companies, there still is a conflict of interest.

That being said, I am mostly just jaded by living the past 15 years in a constant tug-of-war with them about what I want to do and what they say I can do.  From the perspective of someone who is tries to be conservative with my ordering of tests and medications, the amount of exasperation I have had from insurance companies has truly made it hard for me to feel much in the way of good feelings toward them.  I am sure they were right for denying me, but it just is exhausting to fight every day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please do voice your opinion.  I will say that I have actually served on a formulary committee for an insurance company and know that these folks are not evil or bad people &#8211; they are doing what is best for their business.  I have no problems with them doing that.</p>
<p>My beef is not with the management of care &#8211; I agree 100% that care/cost has to be managed (I reiterated that multiple times in Washington).  My problem is to put a for-profit company as the one to decide if money should be withheld.   Even with very nice moral people at insurance companies, there still is a conflict of interest.</p>
<p>That being said, I am mostly just jaded by living the past 15 years in a constant tug-of-war with them about what I want to do and what they say I can do.  From the perspective of someone who is tries to be conservative with my ordering of tests and medications, the amount of exasperation I have had from insurance companies has truly made it hard for me to feel much in the way of good feelings toward them.  I am sure they were right for denying me, but it just is exhausting to fight every day.</p>
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		<title>By: Maureen Kane R.N.</title>
		<link>http://distractible.org/2009/07/18/washing-tons-for-boggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4615</link>
		<dc:creator>Maureen Kane R.N.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2009 01:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://distractible.org/?p=2707#comment-4615</guid>
		<description>Well, Charlie, Rob et al, my innocuous little question/comment sure opened a can of worms didn&#039;t it?  That being said, may I establish that:
1. I have worked for a large national not-for-profit HMO for 18 years. Being integrally involved in  UM ( yes, that dirty word Utilization Management) for 14 of those years years, I can assure you that ALL decisions to either approve or deny were based on either sound clinical  criteria as reviewed by physicans OR the terms of the patient&#039;s contract with us.  
2.  The terms of a member&#039;s contract are set ,in most cases, by the employer, not the insurance company. That is the tail that wags the dog. If the employer says&#039; exclude treatment x,y,z or we will take our 1,000 members elsewhere&#039; we then write the contract as asked. It is the employer who decides that a deductible will be $5,000 for a family and the out of pocket maximum will be an exorbitant $10,000: not the insurance company.
3. The most stringent ( stingy?) of the employer groups are the self funded, as was the group who insured the young lady who died while trying to get a liver transplant. Transplants were excluded by the employer group, not the insurer. Self funded groups are not held accountable to any state laws/mandates regarding what to cover, only Federal laws. That is why employers like being self funded and you will see more and more employers adopt this method of payment. 
4. Wendell Potter has a lot in common with Michael Moore: a penchant for inflammatory statements that present one side without offering concrete facts to back them up. Please see http://www.forbes.com/2008/01/08/sarkisyan-cancer-insurance-biz-healthcare-cz_dw_0107cigna.html for another take on the Nataline Sarkisyan case.
5. Care does need to be &#039;managed&#039; as the health care dollar is indeed finite. A huge reason for the expense of health care= increased premiums= less people able to afford coverage is the fact that every person wants EVERYTHING done that is available, whether appropriate or not.  And they want ultimate unlimited choice. And we all understand  that. But it isn&#039;t possible. Someone has to make the determination that certain treatments are not medically called for. Managed care took on that role and the  rebellion against anyone telling a patient &#039; you don;t need that&#039; continue to this day. 

Thank you for listening. It seems I will have to start my own blog to advocate for the &#039;dark side &#039; and offer some alternative to oftentimes unjustified &#039; insurance company bashing&#039;.
Maureen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Charlie, Rob et al, my innocuous little question/comment sure opened a can of worms didn&#8217;t it?  That being said, may I establish that:<br />
1. I have worked for a large national not-for-profit HMO for 18 years. Being integrally involved in  UM ( yes, that dirty word Utilization Management) for 14 of those years years, I can assure you that ALL decisions to either approve or deny were based on either sound clinical  criteria as reviewed by physicans OR the terms of the patient&#8217;s contract with us.<br />
2.  The terms of a member&#8217;s contract are set ,in most cases, by the employer, not the insurance company. That is the tail that wags the dog. If the employer says&#8217; exclude treatment x,y,z or we will take our 1,000 members elsewhere&#8217; we then write the contract as asked. It is the employer who decides that a deductible will be $5,000 for a family and the out of pocket maximum will be an exorbitant $10,000: not the insurance company.<br />
3. The most stringent ( stingy?) of the employer groups are the self funded, as was the group who insured the young lady who died while trying to get a liver transplant. Transplants were excluded by the employer group, not the insurer. Self funded groups are not held accountable to any state laws/mandates regarding what to cover, only Federal laws. That is why employers like being self funded and you will see more and more employers adopt this method of payment.<br />
4. Wendell Potter has a lot in common with Michael Moore: a penchant for inflammatory statements that present one side without offering concrete facts to back them up. Please see <a href="http://www.forbes.com/2008/01/08/sarkisyan-cancer-insurance-biz-healthcare-cz_dw_0107cigna.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.forbes.com/2008/01/08/sarkisyan-cancer-insurance-biz-healthcare-cz_dw_0107cigna.html</a> for another take on the Nataline Sarkisyan case.<br />
5. Care does need to be &#8216;managed&#8217; as the health care dollar is indeed finite. A huge reason for the expense of health care= increased premiums= less people able to afford coverage is the fact that every person wants EVERYTHING done that is available, whether appropriate or not.  And they want ultimate unlimited choice. And we all understand  that. But it isn&#8217;t possible. Someone has to make the determination that certain treatments are not medically called for. Managed care took on that role and the  rebellion against anyone telling a patient &#8216; you don;t need that&#8217; continue to this day. </p>
<p>Thank you for listening. It seems I will have to start my own blog to advocate for the &#8216;dark side &#8216; and offer some alternative to oftentimes unjustified &#8216; insurance company bashing&#8217;.<br />
Maureen</p>
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		<title>By: Kerri.</title>
		<link>http://distractible.org/2009/07/18/washing-tons-for-boggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4613</link>
		<dc:creator>Kerri.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 20:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://distractible.org/?p=2707#comment-4613</guid>
		<description>Wow.  What a hornet&#039;s nest in here.

For Charlie - I have no issues with Dr. Rob.  He was a very entertaining and personable guy and honestly, as a patient advocate, I felt that he was a good voice to have on our side.  

And for Dr. Rob - I am nice.  And I don&#039;t care for stupid doctor things.  Good calls on both fronts.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow.  What a hornet&#8217;s nest in here.</p>
<p>For Charlie &#8211; I have no issues with Dr. Rob.  He was a very entertaining and personable guy and honestly, as a patient advocate, I felt that he was a good voice to have on our side.  </p>
<p>And for Dr. Rob &#8211; I am nice.  And I don&#8217;t care for stupid doctor things.  Good calls on both fronts.  <img src='http://distractible.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Roundup: Reactions to Putting Patients First &#171; See First Blog</title>
		<link>http://distractible.org/2009/07/18/washing-tons-for-boggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4612</link>
		<dc:creator>Roundup: Reactions to Putting Patients First &#171; See First Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 19:05:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://distractible.org/?p=2707#comment-4612</guid>
		<description>[...] Rob posted his take and comments about his own travel odyssey at Musings of a Distractible Mind.  Rob is a funny fellow, I always respect a man who enters an elevator carrying a glass of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Rob posted his take and comments about his own travel odyssey at Musings of a Distractible Mind.  Rob is a funny fellow, I always respect a man who enters an elevator carrying a glass of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://distractible.org/2009/07/18/washing-tons-for-boggers/comment-page-1/#comment-4611</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 03:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://distractible.org/?p=2707#comment-4611</guid>
		<description>OK.  Thanks for the explanation.

We do double-book, but only 1 per hour and it must be a simple (5 minute) medical problem.  We found that this allowed people to get seen on the same day of their illness and the accessibility it offered was very much loved by our patients.  My staff is good at determining simple from complex.  Most of the time I stay fairly on-time.

The purpose of that post was to rant a little at what I see as political games on the parts of politicos and the doctors standing by the sidelines doing nothing but gripe.  A someone who is trying to put his voice out there for others to hear, it bothers me when my peers jump into political jargon instead of working on the problem itself.  Yes, I get passionate about what I write.  Your problem was that you read one of my strongest pieces early on.  Really, I try to be even-handed and certainly try to listen to what others have to say (read the recent post &quot;Speak to Me&quot; and its comments as a good example).

That, by the way, was the point of the meeting in DC.  We had REAL doctors who take care of REAL patients making their voices heard.

I will take choice of words into consideration, but if my passion spurs dialogue, then I suppose I&#039;ve done what I wanted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK.  Thanks for the explanation.</p>
<p>We do double-book, but only 1 per hour and it must be a simple (5 minute) medical problem.  We found that this allowed people to get seen on the same day of their illness and the accessibility it offered was very much loved by our patients.  My staff is good at determining simple from complex.  Most of the time I stay fairly on-time.</p>
<p>The purpose of that post was to rant a little at what I see as political games on the parts of politicos and the doctors standing by the sidelines doing nothing but gripe.  A someone who is trying to put his voice out there for others to hear, it bothers me when my peers jump into political jargon instead of working on the problem itself.  Yes, I get passionate about what I write.  Your problem was that you read one of my strongest pieces early on.  Really, I try to be even-handed and certainly try to listen to what others have to say (read the recent post &#8220;Speak to Me&#8221; and its comments as a good example).</p>
<p>That, by the way, was the point of the meeting in DC.  We had REAL doctors who take care of REAL patients making their voices heard.</p>
<p>I will take choice of words into consideration, but if my passion spurs dialogue, then I suppose I&#8217;ve done what I wanted.</p>
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